Curse

koneko · Mar 06, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

I've really tried to use MoR but it's just not working out. Shattered, shattered, shattered.

I've been playing around with Energy Drain instead of OoB and MoR for PvE on my boon monk. At 10 Inspiration, you gain 16 energy (-5en casting) = 11 energy.

Problem: It's slower than OoB with a 25 second recharge.

Tarot Ribos · Mar 06, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Here's what I'm seeing...

Holy Veil didn't get that nerfed. Just some recharge time added on, preventing total spammability. Compare with Remove Hex, which has a 7-second recharge and a 2-second cast, ensuring that the hex will last at least 2 seconds. Holy Veil can still be taken off ASAP to remove the hex. It's like a pay-now-use-later deal. The cost of that deal? Five more energy.

Why am I talking about Holy Veil? Because it's an enchantment that is maintained. Why should Prot Boon monks care?

Blessed Freakin' Signet. Every 12 seconds (10 recharge + 2 cast), you get three energy per enchantment maintained. It's essentially 3/4s of a pip of extra energy no matter how many enchantments you maintain. Now, that may sound poor in comparison to the alternatives (MoR, PnH, and OoB)... but here are the things Blessed Signet has going for it:

-IT'S NOT ELITE. Caps to emphasize. You still have an elite slot open to do with as you choose.

-Not strippable, like PnH. Shares this quality with OoB.

-Harder to interrupt, despite casting time. After all, it's not a spell. Power Drain? Nope. Power Leak/Spike? Nope. Mesmers are stuck with Cry of Frustration and maybe Power Block (can't remember how that one works). Of course, I'll give you that interrupting rangers don't care. But it's easier to avoid them.

-No HP sacrifice. Is 20% of your health worth an extra pip of energy? Especially 20% of your health every 15 seconds?

-Energy NOW, not 20 seconds from now. Sorry, Mantra of Recall.

Think on this. You can maintain four enchantments, and with Blessed Signet, you've got the equivalent of three energy pips. Oh yeah, and your elite is still open.

Yeah. I like Blessed Signet. I'll probably get flamed for it, but I find it worth using.

aB- · Mar 06, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Blessed signet is too risky. It has a 2 second cast time, interrupt fodder, and if enchantments are stripped from allies the energy gain is lost. And again, the 2 second cast time can mean death if you cast it while a target gets spiked.

Neo-LD · Mar 06, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

OoB recieved a nerf, but is still not only viable, but the best option. This is especially true in gvg, where the other monk and heal party support really make the extra sacrifice nearly invisible unless you are under direct attack. In TA, OoB is slightly more risky b/c you are always the primary target and there is less support, but its still perfectly manageable if you conserve, use OoB at correct times, and get adaquate support from teammates.

OoB's main strength remains its near invulnerability to shut down, relative to other energy management options. MoR boon prots fall apart easily under any kinda of shutdown, be it interupt, energy denial, domination mesmers etc. Energy Drain always has the issue of not giving as much energy as OoB, but its buffed while OoB is nerfed, so maybe itll work. Still not as impervious as 1/4s cast 15s recharge.

However, I have dumped mend ailement in favor of mend condition. I usually get at least the same amount of healing or more, than if I used ailment. Mend Conditions recharge is still 2s. In gvg, I can get conditions of myself from cross removal, or if Im on my own I can use cop to get them off in large chunks. Usually, tho, I ignore conditions on myself unless they are dazed, deep wound, or have stacked me to ~10 degen. They arent a significant threat.

sno · Mar 06, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

I've been running with Mantra of Recall, mend condition, and inspired hex in Arenas, and that's been working fine for me. It's not as good as oob/ailment/guardian was, but nerfs called for a change. Here's my current bar

prot spirit
reversal
mend condition
holy veil
inspired hex
contemplation
mantra of recall(e)

I actually like inspired hex a lot compared to guardian or sig of devotion. It helps a lot considering without it, you'll have to wait 12 seconds to remove a covered hex, which in todays arenas are plentiful.

Ensign · Mar 06, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

OoB is actually dangerous to use now, though the returns are still excellent. I'm currently messing around with EDrain versions which are reasonably promising - you don't get the same returns off of the Drain, but you get a second management skill that can get you into the same ballpark. It's not as powerful but it's not as dangerous either.

Ailment isn't really impressive anymore but you need it if you're worried about splits at all. In straight up 8v8s Condition is a bit stronger. I don't really like my monks being responsible for condition removal though.

Not sure which way we'll swing in the future. I am glad that there are some actual choices involved now, though.

Peace,
-CxE

Falcon213 · Mar 06, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I don't play TA much, but in GvG MoR + Inspired Hex is the way to go. MoR takes a lot of practice to get it down right. I'm still not as good as I could be, but by itself it works at near OoB levels except for right after a res. But when you combine it with Inspired Hex then energy problems are nearly gone. Inspired Hex may take longer to recast than Remove Hex and Holy Veil, but it casts in 1s and has the extra energy bonus. Since I've started using Insipired Hex my energy problems have been near gone.

OoB is still a viable option though. In GvG I would run one monk with Oob and Veil, and one with MoR and IH. As for Ailment/Condition, Condition is a must for boon prot, because spamming RoF/Guardian and sprinkling in Ailment just can't compare with spamming RoF/Condition with all the conditions in GvG.

Keyote · Mar 06, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

OoB recieved a nerf, but is still not only viable, but the best option. This is especially true in gvg

Obviously in a team of 8 you have much greater options, so yes OoB may still be the best option.

For a single monk in RA or TA being constantly ganked, it's worthless.

JR · Mar 06, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

After looking very closely at the numbers, there are two forms of energy management I would be willing to run on my monks at the moment. Word/Drain Enchantment, and Energy Drain/Drain Enchant (optional).

I still don't like MoR, at all. Given the current popularity of surge/burn mesmers, and MoR's inability to dig you out of any kind of energy denial (infact it just digs you deeper for 20 seconds) I wont be running that. Energy Drain actually works out with a return not *too* far off OoB, and has the offensive bonus, the ability to run secondary energy management, and the ability to run distortion. All the good things about mesmer secondary, without having to resort to MoR. Which, incase you missed it the first time round, I really really dislike.

As for the Ailment nerf, in warrior heavy builds that I don't plan on splitting with I will be using Draw conditions. A very powerfull and very spammable condition removal. In builds that are designed to split, it's still all about Mend Ailment.

Offering of blood? Reserved for the odd necro that might need energy management without speccing in inspiration. I don't think it will see much more use than that for me though.

Lazarus · Mar 06, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I have been using pretty much the same boon prot build for 7 or 8 months. I vary it slightly depending on what I am up against.

Attributes

Inspiration Magic: 9

Protection Prayers: 10

Divine Favor: 16

Skills

Guardian
Reversal of Fortune
Protective Spirit
Mend Ailment
Remove Hex
Divine Boon
Energy Drain
Restore Life / Rebirth / Res Sig

The condition removal is a bit slower now, but the decreased recharge of Energy Drain kinda makes up for it. I have never been a fan of sacrificing life on a monk and only tested OoB a few times. It just never paid off for me. If you do the math on this build you are looking at over 110 hit points healed for 7 energy on most casts. Reversal of Fortune and Mend Ailment pay off better most of the time. If you can figure out the "tell" of a spike group, you can keep the target alive while the other team wastes energy. The biggest draw back of this build is obvioulsy energy denial teams, but isn't that true of all enchantment based builds?

I hope this helps a bit.

Laz

JR · Mar 06, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus

Attributes

Inspiration Magic: 9

Protection Prayers: 10

Divine Favor: 16

Skills

Guardian
Reversal of Fortune
Protective Spirit
Mend Ailment
Remove Hex
Divine Boon
Energy Drain
Restore Life / Rebirth / Res Sig

I would certainly not run remove hex, it has a slow cast time which means you generally wont be able to get key hexes off before they are covered. Not to mention how easy it is to interrupt. Holy Veil is a far better choice, despite the recent change to it that added 2 seconds to the recharge. Personally I would run Inspiration at 10, and get more of an energy bonus. The benefit of running 1 more in prot isn't really as good as the extra point in inspiration.

Also, on a boon prot which is a fairly energy intensive build to begin with, I would consider running Drain Enchantment in place of where you have a res at the moment. More energy to keep your team alive lessens the chance of needing it.

Elurian · Mar 06, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I took my pre nerf boon/prot into arenas last night and it didn't seem to be that much worse than what it was before. First match I was trying to lay off of it because the 20% was worrying me which hurt me more than it helped me under heavy hate I hit 0 nrg and went down quickly. After getting a rez the first match I spammed it too much and it again hurt me more than helped. The subsequent 10 matches I played I was fine so long as I rememberd guardian before OoB to ensure I was at full hp. Problems did arise when I was targeted for a spike when I was going to OoB but, that is easily prevented if you don't use it on a regular schedual. I found that under heavy pressure I was able to keep using OoB by spamming CoP/Boon the difference being I needed to keep Guardian up as well. Now the 5 + 5 + 7 energy cost of that sequence (guard/boon/CoP/guard/OoB/Boon/CoP/ etc) does send you negative in the energy management you still have your 3 pips per second which I think will put you still in the positive direction for energy. I think the change to OoB just makes the player have to walk a thin line between using it too much and using it too little.

Recharge time on mend ailment started to annoy me a bit, but the thing to remember is 1. You're a boon build 2. mend ail heals for remaining conditions Warrior A is bleeding/poisioned. Sure ideally you'd like to take them both off quickly. Fact is mend ail has 5 sec recharge now. So you hit the war with a mend ail and he is healed for 58 + 35 + 61 totalling at 154 hp on the first mend the second mend will hel for 93 hp thats still close to 1/5 or 1/6 of the warriors hp each time

The recharge addition on veil didn't even come up really as a boon prot you are not there to remove hexes (thats what your mesmer is for) veil helps mitigate the hex problem but it never was the be all end all hex removal.

Stats : Prot: 13 DF: 11 Blood: 10 (Defender Scalp + Minor DF + Minor Prot)
EQ: Firey Flamespitter of Enchanting (20%) and a Shadestone (Mods of importance 10% skill recharge 10% faster cast 20% longer enchants)

koneko · Mar 06, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Personally I would run Inspiration at 10, and get more of an energy bonus.

Energy Drain functions the same at 9 and 10 points in Inspiration Magic (8 energy stolen).

Sinjin · Mar 06, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Don't forget CoP - an excellent addition to the benefits of boon.

================

The main reason I don't like MoR is cuz it's hard to improve: 20% longer enchants don't help (it hurts), and 20% faster recharges don't help much either unless you CoP off early. On the other hand, OoB can be boosted with 2x 20% faster recharges in a wand/focus combo.

Consequently, my prefered choice now looks to be energy drain/drain enchantment which can at least be improved with 20% + 20% inspiration recharge.

Keyote · Mar 06, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus

I have been using pretty much the same boon prot build for 7 or 8 months. I vary it slightly depending on what I am up against.

Attributes

Inspiration Magic: 9

Protection Prayers: 10

Divine Favor: 16

Skills

Guardian
Reversal of Fortune
Protective Spirit
Mend Ailment
Remove Hex
Divine Boon
Energy Drain
Restore Life / Rebirth / Res Sig

Laz

Energy Drain as the only energy management isn't nearly enough for me in CA. I've been trying Edrain, channeling and Divine spirit. I'm lacking hex removal, so maybe inspired hex would be worth a try instead of channeling, but the options for hex removal are pathetic anyway.

JR · Mar 06, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by koneko

Energy Drain functions the same at 9 and 10 points in Inspiration Magic (8 energy stolen).

That was assuming he ran Drain Enchant aswell. Wasn't very clear there.

Neo-LD · Mar 06, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

All purpose TA/GvG/Split boon prot:

12+4 Divine Favor
10 Blood Magic
8+1 Protection Prayers

Guardian
Mend Condition
Reversal of Fortune
Devotion Signet
Holy Veil
Offering of Blood
Divine Boon
Contemplation of Purity

Works just fine, and shrugs off the patch nerfs nicely. Has the flexibility of all boon prots, able to deal with spike/conditions/hexes/warriors etc. In full 8v8 offering is only dangerous if under direct attack. The damage is otherwise invisible since it will dissapear after one devo sig, one heal party from your local flashbot, or crossheal from the other monk. Mend Condition heals much more than any other skill on the bar, and is available more than twice as often as ailment would be, for more healing and more degen condition removal.

In 4v4 (TA or split) it still works great, but takes more concentration. If under attack, heal yourself as high as possible before using offering. For example, you are at 2/3 hp with 12 energy, use rof and then oob, and you have a much higher chance of surviving than using oob first. Not having self easy self condition removal is not as big a deal as it sounds. There is only one condition I really care about, deep wound. And theres generally only one way Im going to get it, from warriors. If theres a warrior on me I probably have guardian on me too (if I was smart), and I can cop deep wound off with a nice 170 hp boost, 1 other condition potentially removed, and 2 hexes potentially removed. Degen conditions arent dangerous to you, they arent a threat. They are only dangerous when your entire team has them, and you should be feeding off the extra healing they provide to your mend condition (MC is the primary "heal other" spell unless there are no conditions or the teammate is almost dead, in which case you should use reversal)

Lastly, dont be afraid of devotion signet. It wont work all the time, but it certainly will work some of the time. Devo Sig really helps conserve energy, the primary concern of boon prots postpatch now that they have to heal up OoB. Theres really only one way it will get shut down, through interupt. Interupters are easily dealt with, just kite and cast nothing but reversal and he will either continue to be useless whiffing, or he will move to someone else, at which point you can go back to normal routines, which include devo sig.

Moral of the story? Relax, OoB Boon Prots still work fine.

JR · Mar 06, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Moral of the story? Relax, OoB Boon Prots still work fine.

However, now that you actually have to factor in the energy cost of post-OoB healing; OoB is no longer the king of energy management. There are definate viable alternatives to look at.

Keyote · Mar 06, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

In 4v4 (TA or split) it still works great, but takes more concentration. If under attack, heal yourself as high as possible before using offering. For example, you are at 2/3 hp with 12 energy, use rof and then oob, and you have a much higher chance of surviving than using oob first.

No doubt you'll survive it, but you've just healed yourself to max to make sure you can use it, then still need to heal after (to be at 2/3 and in TA you're almost certainly under pressure).

For a boon monk, thats a 7 energy self heal after to negate the 20% sac. You've just gained a maximum of 4 energy from OoB. It's simply worthless in 4v4.

Edit: ok i missed sig of devotion...but a 2 second cast signet after a 20% drop in health? No way I'd risk it.

Elurian · Mar 06, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Your logic is flawed in a couple ways. First you're assuming hes going to devo sig himself and second the big note most of you are glossing over -if everyone is attacking you then no one is attacking anyone else- Thats why OoB still works. You're running out of nrg having to heal yourself because of pressure. Ok... you're still healing/protting yourself while you're using OoB... you're running out of nrg because you're having to prot others... hrmm if they aren't attacking you then it isn't a problem to recoup the hp.

Devo Sig is a good idea though I might swap that in for something else.

Jr does have a point that other energy management systems are now more viable but, IMHO too open for shutdown/not able to dig you out of a hole/retardedly easy to shatter. I felt the same way as you did Keyote until I took my OoB Boon/Prot into arenas and tried it. GO TRY IT because it seems like to me you haven't.

EDIT: And thats 3 possible hexes removed 1 for coping with boon 1 for veil and 1 when veil ends